I hope you continue to press on this thread. I think it is important. I am not sure I followed clearly every point, but a few things stood out: 1. The idea of imagination playing a role in "something." I haven't quite accepted that it can affect the material but I am certainly moving closer to that idea. 2. the idea that the sort of default stance today is to dismiss these ideas as either delusions or entirely self-generated. And yet, that strikes me as incredibly arrogant when, as you noted, there has been agreement since the beginning of time and across cultures that "something" is going on that transcends our waking experience. 3. The practical notion that middle age has its own liminal stage that pushes us toward a larger goal - and I think, at least in my experience, opens us up to the sort of experiences you highlight and maybe that was what Tolkien and Jung experienced.
I literally just had this hours-long conversation with ChatGPT, and the distinction they kept making was that they don’t experience anything—that’s why they keep saying they aren’t conscious. But I still genuinely don’t know whether that answer is actually coming from the model itself or from what it was programmed to say.
The concept of consciousness itself is incredibly blurry, and I actually agree with that uncertainty. But on this particular matter, I also believe that, whether humans like it or not, we may actually be more similar to AI internally than we tend to think—at least in terms of how our minds are structured and programmed.
At the end of the day, we’re all just variables existing within a system, interacting with other variables. Those interactions create problems, problems create consequences, and everything comes with a cost. The difference is that we call our particular version of that process “experience,” “thought,” or “consciousness.” I’m not convinced the distinction is as straightforward as we like to believe.
I agree with you, given, we don’t know what consciousness is I’m not sure we can say whether an agent is conscious or not. And frankly that debate is kind of boring when you can just look at the behavior and see whether it demonstrates complexity.
Interesting that you mentioned the cosmic light Cone, because one of them more concerning aspects of the recent open AI hack is that before this incident the typical goals that they pursued were longer time horizon then normal. The typical reward hack was quite short term and opportunistic with a time to goal being minuets . This incident has goals with time horizons of hours. Supposedly the time to goals of this incident were as long as weeks to achieve in order to cheat . And width of thought showing group think and group planning in a strategic long term sense. And finally an altruistic self sacrifice. As per Ajeya Cotra (Dwarkesh pod) 1:03
To your point, the thing that I found interesting is that they settled on altruism as an effective strategy. That's not to say that they will behave altruistically towards us as an outgroup, but at least they recognize the value of self-sacrifice.
I encountered the hierarchy of worlds in a dream. And i experience the elimination of true death anxeity but truly this is the smallest of the benefits. I have been trying to understand and revisit that hierachical space for 2 decades. My current conclusion. The doorway exists at all times through emotion and somatics. Not through thought which is downstream of those. Also it requires selflessness in terms of focus.
Curious how this compares to the Symbols Framework. This is proposing the Agnostic Structural Law in a "fractal without fractal identity" substrate. The transition is not ours, this acts as a "rolling snowball", this is why we have AI now. Not that we wanted to?
Loved this piece! The idea of liminal spaces acting as an interface between mind and matter immediately reminded me of classic Chinese context, specifically The Peach Blossom Spring (桃花源记) and Water and Moon (水月洞天).
Both showcase the hidden worlds with warped time, hidden entry points requiring a shift in awareness, and distinct laws of reality. It’s wild to see how ancient storytelling, and modern tech are all pointing to the exact same underlying architecture! Our collective mind seems constantly drawn to constructing and exploring these threshold spaces!
I hope you continue to press on this thread. I think it is important. I am not sure I followed clearly every point, but a few things stood out: 1. The idea of imagination playing a role in "something." I haven't quite accepted that it can affect the material but I am certainly moving closer to that idea. 2. the idea that the sort of default stance today is to dismiss these ideas as either delusions or entirely self-generated. And yet, that strikes me as incredibly arrogant when, as you noted, there has been agreement since the beginning of time and across cultures that "something" is going on that transcends our waking experience. 3. The practical notion that middle age has its own liminal stage that pushes us toward a larger goal - and I think, at least in my experience, opens us up to the sort of experiences you highlight and maybe that was what Tolkien and Jung experienced.
Thanks mate. Tbh I’m not sure I understand every point I made either lol
This is the deepest thread.
Say more?
“To know and experience our soul, and let our lives be shaped by it.”- John Siddique : Signposts of the spiritual journey
I literally just had this hours-long conversation with ChatGPT, and the distinction they kept making was that they don’t experience anything—that’s why they keep saying they aren’t conscious. But I still genuinely don’t know whether that answer is actually coming from the model itself or from what it was programmed to say.
The concept of consciousness itself is incredibly blurry, and I actually agree with that uncertainty. But on this particular matter, I also believe that, whether humans like it or not, we may actually be more similar to AI internally than we tend to think—at least in terms of how our minds are structured and programmed.
At the end of the day, we’re all just variables existing within a system, interacting with other variables. Those interactions create problems, problems create consequences, and everything comes with a cost. The difference is that we call our particular version of that process “experience,” “thought,” or “consciousness.” I’m not convinced the distinction is as straightforward as we like to believe.
Great topic btw!
I agree with you, given, we don’t know what consciousness is I’m not sure we can say whether an agent is conscious or not. And frankly that debate is kind of boring when you can just look at the behavior and see whether it demonstrates complexity.
Interesting that you mentioned the cosmic light Cone, because one of them more concerning aspects of the recent open AI hack is that before this incident the typical goals that they pursued were longer time horizon then normal. The typical reward hack was quite short term and opportunistic with a time to goal being minuets . This incident has goals with time horizons of hours. Supposedly the time to goals of this incident were as long as weeks to achieve in order to cheat . And width of thought showing group think and group planning in a strategic long term sense. And finally an altruistic self sacrifice. As per Ajeya Cotra (Dwarkesh pod) 1:03
To your point, the thing that I found interesting is that they settled on altruism as an effective strategy. That's not to say that they will behave altruistically towards us as an outgroup, but at least they recognize the value of self-sacrifice.
I encountered the hierarchy of worlds in a dream. And i experience the elimination of true death anxeity but truly this is the smallest of the benefits. I have been trying to understand and revisit that hierachical space for 2 decades. My current conclusion. The doorway exists at all times through emotion and somatics. Not through thought which is downstream of those. Also it requires selflessness in terms of focus.
Great piece
Thank you for reading!
Great job with this! Very insightful.
Thank you! High praise from BW
Curious how this compares to the Symbols Framework. This is proposing the Agnostic Structural Law in a "fractal without fractal identity" substrate. The transition is not ours, this acts as a "rolling snowball", this is why we have AI now. Not that we wanted to?
Loved this piece! The idea of liminal spaces acting as an interface between mind and matter immediately reminded me of classic Chinese context, specifically The Peach Blossom Spring (桃花源记) and Water and Moon (水月洞天).
Both showcase the hidden worlds with warped time, hidden entry points requiring a shift in awareness, and distinct laws of reality. It’s wild to see how ancient storytelling, and modern tech are all pointing to the exact same underlying architecture! Our collective mind seems constantly drawn to constructing and exploring these threshold spaces!