Thanks for the most interesting article and links. Also just finished Burton's Rational Magic article. Lots to discuss, but I am reminded that until very recently, electricity and electromagnitism were unknown forces. If you dropped into those times with a smartphone and made a video call to someone on the other side of the world, it would be considered magic at best - witchcraft more likely.
Science tells us that 90% of the universe is "dark matter and energy." How does that work and how does it interact with our personal world? Nobody knows. I am skeptical about the proposition, since history is littered with such scientific lack of understandings. Maybe the Earth is really just the back of a giant turtle.
However, the point is that we just don't know what we don't know. This is the only rational approach it seems to me. My own rational exploration of the physical and operational structure of the brain just shouts in big flashing lights "We have no idea of what the mind is capable of!"
It also seems to me that the post-rational discussion is a mixture of psi and "meaning of life" issues. I look forward to your further explorations of this topic.
Thanks Mark. I've had my own worldview so messed up in the last couple of months. But everyone is on their own part of the path. So I can never tell what sounds obvious and what sounds ridiculous..
I think (or, at least, I would like to think) that I am open-minded about most things. I try to be. I do sometimes wonder whether actually a bit of selective closed-mindedness may be a good thing. Where does closed-mindedness end and being principled begin??
Not sure I see it as a trade off between open-mindedness and principles. But let's look at what bveing TOO open-minded means. Obviously JBP is problematic in a lot of ways, but I found this discussion with Ferriss on the dangers of too much openness stuck with me:
Jordan Peterson: It depends on how neurotic you are.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Okay.
Jordan Peterson: No. I mean it technically. This is the technical discussion. Openness isn’t much fun if you’re high in neuroticism because you continually undermine yourself. Openness is creativity, but let’s not be all pollyannaish about this. There wouldn’t be variation in creativity if it wasn’t dangerous. There’s lots of people who are very low in openness, and there’s a reason for that. Now it has advantages. Open people occupy a particular niche. They’re on the edge.
Tim Ferriss: Jordan, would you mind defining openness in this particular context?
Jordan Peterson: Sure. Well, people who are open, there’s creativity, essentially. Creativity and verbal fluency together make up openness. Now it’s also associated with verbal IQ. There’s five personality traits, extraversion, it’s positive emotion, neuroticism, that’s negative emotion. Agreeableness, that’s compassion versus predatory aggression, something like that. Conscientiousness, that’s dutifulness, orderliness. And then, openness, which is intellect, interest in ideas, and creativity.
And you might think the more of that, the better, but no. That isn’t how nature works. You can undo yourself by being open. People who are open have a hard time catalyzing their identity because they’re so protean. They shift shapes constantly. They’re interested in everything. It makes it very hard for them to pursue one thing. And my observation is that if people are high in negative emotion, so they’re prone to anxiety, for example, then being open can be a curse because along — when you expose yourself to something that’s unknown, that extraversion and openness can drive you forward as a function of curiosity and engagement.
But the uncertainty, you pay a price for it physiologically. Because when you face something uncertain, like when you’re angry, your body has to prepare for anything. And that’s expensive and physiologically demanding. And so open people, they flip things upside-down all the time, and that’s dangerous. It isn’t like it’s not necessary, don’t get me wrong. It’s necessary. This chapter I made allusion to, I said, “Don’t casually criticize social institutions or creative achievement.” I picked those phrases very carefully.
We need social institutions, but they become corrupt. And so we need creative revolution, but it can get out of hand. And so there’s this constant war between the strictures of tradition and the transformation of creativity. And you can’t say who’s right, you can just talk it out. But the psilocybin, you take one dose and have a mystical experience, and you move from 50th percentile openness to 85th percentile with one dose. It’s a major neurological rewiring. It’s stunning. It’s stunning. And you could say, well that I’m sure there are things about that that are good. But Jung said, “Beware of unearned wisdom.”
"And my observation is that if people are high in negative emotion, so they’re prone to anxiety, for example, then being open can be a curse because along — when you expose yourself to something that’s unknown, that extraversion and openness can drive you forward as a function of curiosity and engagement.
But the uncertainty, you pay a price for it physiologically. Because when you face something uncertain, like when you’re angry, your body has to prepare for anything. And that’s expensive and physiologically demanding"
I also think it's this simple sometimes: openness to robust, published research that questions your view of metaphysics is one thing, full conspiracy theories with no basis is another. And too much openness can blur that boundary.
Appreciate the vulnerability in sharing your journey. I read through the entire transcript and caught that you're tinkering with patronage. I've been thinking about this too (albeit from the other side) as I left my cushy tech job at the start of the year. I've been awestruck by the fact that I'm working on things that feel a lot more meaningful and yet I'm making $0 for the time being. Happy to jam on ideas or share more about my experience at any time!
Thanks Matt. I was a bit terrified to share, and still am. I’m looking into patronage as an idea. But as a decidedly non wealthy person I’m trying to incept the richer people in my audience...
White light my friend. Can't imagine what that was like but glad you made it through. I've certainly moved open-mindedness up the virtue list along with kindness and curiosity. This article among others in our e-village of the world really cut to the heart of what matters and how best to get there. Appreciate your work!
Ah thanks mate. Your butterfly-wing intervention on my path was actually a critical part of getting this message out. And giving me the confidence to be "me" in a public setting.
Happy to play a small part. I was following my curiosity. Necker's recent post really rings home as well on how our paths crossed. I seem to be on a journey of my own and your support has been both motivating and enlightening as I search for the light!
Thanks for the most interesting article and links. Also just finished Burton's Rational Magic article. Lots to discuss, but I am reminded that until very recently, electricity and electromagnitism were unknown forces. If you dropped into those times with a smartphone and made a video call to someone on the other side of the world, it would be considered magic at best - witchcraft more likely.
Science tells us that 90% of the universe is "dark matter and energy." How does that work and how does it interact with our personal world? Nobody knows. I am skeptical about the proposition, since history is littered with such scientific lack of understandings. Maybe the Earth is really just the back of a giant turtle.
However, the point is that we just don't know what we don't know. This is the only rational approach it seems to me. My own rational exploration of the physical and operational structure of the brain just shouts in big flashing lights "We have no idea of what the mind is capable of!"
It also seems to me that the post-rational discussion is a mixture of psi and "meaning of life" issues. I look forward to your further explorations of this topic.
Thanks Mark. I've had my own worldview so messed up in the last couple of months. But everyone is on their own part of the path. So I can never tell what sounds obvious and what sounds ridiculous..
That stuff about psi is 🤯🤯.
I think (or, at least, I would like to think) that I am open-minded about most things. I try to be. I do sometimes wonder whether actually a bit of selective closed-mindedness may be a good thing. Where does closed-mindedness end and being principled begin??
Not sure I see it as a trade off between open-mindedness and principles. But let's look at what bveing TOO open-minded means. Obviously JBP is problematic in a lot of ways, but I found this discussion with Ferriss on the dangers of too much openness stuck with me:
Jordan Peterson: It depends on how neurotic you are.
Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Okay.
Jordan Peterson: No. I mean it technically. This is the technical discussion. Openness isn’t much fun if you’re high in neuroticism because you continually undermine yourself. Openness is creativity, but let’s not be all pollyannaish about this. There wouldn’t be variation in creativity if it wasn’t dangerous. There’s lots of people who are very low in openness, and there’s a reason for that. Now it has advantages. Open people occupy a particular niche. They’re on the edge.
Tim Ferriss: Jordan, would you mind defining openness in this particular context?
Jordan Peterson: Sure. Well, people who are open, there’s creativity, essentially. Creativity and verbal fluency together make up openness. Now it’s also associated with verbal IQ. There’s five personality traits, extraversion, it’s positive emotion, neuroticism, that’s negative emotion. Agreeableness, that’s compassion versus predatory aggression, something like that. Conscientiousness, that’s dutifulness, orderliness. And then, openness, which is intellect, interest in ideas, and creativity.
And you might think the more of that, the better, but no. That isn’t how nature works. You can undo yourself by being open. People who are open have a hard time catalyzing their identity because they’re so protean. They shift shapes constantly. They’re interested in everything. It makes it very hard for them to pursue one thing. And my observation is that if people are high in negative emotion, so they’re prone to anxiety, for example, then being open can be a curse because along — when you expose yourself to something that’s unknown, that extraversion and openness can drive you forward as a function of curiosity and engagement.
But the uncertainty, you pay a price for it physiologically. Because when you face something uncertain, like when you’re angry, your body has to prepare for anything. And that’s expensive and physiologically demanding. And so open people, they flip things upside-down all the time, and that’s dangerous. It isn’t like it’s not necessary, don’t get me wrong. It’s necessary. This chapter I made allusion to, I said, “Don’t casually criticize social institutions or creative achievement.” I picked those phrases very carefully.
We need social institutions, but they become corrupt. And so we need creative revolution, but it can get out of hand. And so there’s this constant war between the strictures of tradition and the transformation of creativity. And you can’t say who’s right, you can just talk it out. But the psilocybin, you take one dose and have a mystical experience, and you move from 50th percentile openness to 85th percentile with one dose. It’s a major neurological rewiring. It’s stunning. It’s stunning. And you could say, well that I’m sure there are things about that that are good. But Jung said, “Beware of unearned wisdom.”
Interesting. This bit is great:
"And my observation is that if people are high in negative emotion, so they’re prone to anxiety, for example, then being open can be a curse because along — when you expose yourself to something that’s unknown, that extraversion and openness can drive you forward as a function of curiosity and engagement.
But the uncertainty, you pay a price for it physiologically. Because when you face something uncertain, like when you’re angry, your body has to prepare for anything. And that’s expensive and physiologically demanding"
I also think it's this simple sometimes: openness to robust, published research that questions your view of metaphysics is one thing, full conspiracy theories with no basis is another. And too much openness can blur that boundary.
Appreciate the vulnerability in sharing your journey. I read through the entire transcript and caught that you're tinkering with patronage. I've been thinking about this too (albeit from the other side) as I left my cushy tech job at the start of the year. I've been awestruck by the fact that I'm working on things that feel a lot more meaningful and yet I'm making $0 for the time being. Happy to jam on ideas or share more about my experience at any time!
Thanks Matt. I was a bit terrified to share, and still am. I’m looking into patronage as an idea. But as a decidedly non wealthy person I’m trying to incept the richer people in my audience...
Just listened to your podcast with Jules Evans. Thank you for sharing your journey!
Thanks mate. Was obviously hesitant to do so, but felt it was worth it in case it resonated.
White light my friend. Can't imagine what that was like but glad you made it through. I've certainly moved open-mindedness up the virtue list along with kindness and curiosity. This article among others in our e-village of the world really cut to the heart of what matters and how best to get there. Appreciate your work!
Ah thanks mate. Your butterfly-wing intervention on my path was actually a critical part of getting this message out. And giving me the confidence to be "me" in a public setting.
Happy to play a small part. I was following my curiosity. Necker's recent post really rings home as well on how our paths crossed. I seem to be on a journey of my own and your support has been both motivating and enlightening as I search for the light!